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Author Topic: What is proper music for PNF?  (Read 11655 times)
Marcus
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« on: February 28, 2007, 03:08:04 AM »

What is proper music for PNF? ... this question has bothered me for some time. The points I want to pick up can be found from:
 
http://forum.prognotfrog.com/index.php?topic=783.msg2105#msg2105

What do you think?
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
Yann
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 04:39:25 AM »

Is their a proper music for PNF ?
I don't think so. The evidence : there are pages for rock, folk, jazz, world...
The question would have been : what is considered as "prog" ?
 Huh?
No real good answer to give.
Bill Bruford himself said many years ago : "i don't play prog music, i don't know what it is". And Thijs Van Leer : "my music is just evolutive".
 Cool
Remember that the "prog" term is an invention of reviewers. And it can embrace a wide range of styles (psyche, sympho, space rock, jazz rock, folk, zeuhl...).
Prog music could be something without etiquette, simply.
So why a prog community ? Maybe because we just listen and think different, like hippies against easy soup and boring systems.  Tongue
Dreamers ? So why not ?
Prog fans debate since almost 40 years, and everyone has his own definition, and it's just a nice way to do. Debates keep things alive !
 Wink
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Marcus
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 05:58:12 AM »

off course, "what is prog?" is the old and never-ending topic, but that's not the (only) question here.

First, these various mp3-categories in this forum bothers me. The most of posts go to one category, allthough in my opinion many of them should be, for instance, in the category of 'Others'. Should we pay more attention to that? (...and off course, this is yet again about the question what is prog and what is not...)

Secondly, many of us think that this should be a forum for rare findings. In that matter, is nationally popular but internationally never-heard band proper post here? Is it rare finding? As in case of my Kauko Röyhkä -post, finns may consider it just ordinary top 10 -pop music, but this point of view is unfamiliar for all the others. Röyhkä is played in 'ordinary' radio stations in Finland, so should it be at PNF at all?

I know that it is acceptable to post here allmost anything which I personally (but somewhat self-critically) consider being prog, but that is not my point here. I simply don't want to post here albums about which 99 % of YOU think that "what the hell this is doing here...".

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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
mukuta
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 06:16:27 AM »

then there should be a ,whats the hell doing this record here place to

i like a lot of music  even normal  Grin
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Marcus
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 06:29:34 AM »

 Tongue Damn good idea!!!!
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
nahavanda
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 06:58:43 AM »

i understood your point of view,

hmm first of all i would like to tell a small history of PNF blog,

well we were some friends who have a great passion for the music..and most of the guyz inside pnf was really fans of Progressive Rock music..on those days, 1 years before..there was something happened: music blogs explosion!
all the day one of my friend was sending me the adress of awesome blogs, like chris goes rock..like 8daysin april..and i was really happy to go to this blogs as a user..because it was a revolutionist thing..when you go progarchives or allmusic.com like databases..it is really hard to decide what kind of music you would like to touch in..
however something we noticed is: most of the blogs focusing on only one music type and one date (like 60s, 70s..) there are some powerful scenes for music..
US,UK,Germany,Sweden,Italy,France..
We just added "all countries" to that music pool..
and as a begining we sent some albums and it was even rare for the people of the related countries..i mean: when we sent something from sweden, the guyz were commenting like: Hell! eventhough i am from sweden..i didnt know about a band like that, so thanks! (especially first 6 months of the pnf was so special you may look to the archives in the site)

Well i always like to speak honest..at the begining sending albums to blog was so easy..there were only a few rock/folk blogs..now you can find millions..and there opened new blogs like focusing on 1 country's music..So at the blog site we dive deep and deep to the rarest stuff..Some people take this blogging a place like challanging.. first posted here!! mega bombs coming!! etc
what was our aim was to come together from all countries and learn music all together..I think this is why that forum is handy place..

The known band from Finnish scene is a lot different than the known band from US/UK scene..when a band/artist release some good works in those countries..you can even find that albums in a small market in africa! Dont take ma bad..i am not saying anything for these countries.. when you send jimi hendrix (that i love a lot) it has a collecting value more than its listening value..and this is same for almost every band/artist from that countries..
i have some friends from different countries they are really great collectors, when i ask them: hey tell me some bands from your country..then she/he start thinking what can he/she advice..but if you ask something from US/UK scene to those guyz..they probably advise you the most rarest most unheard and most beutiful album..its a kind of conflict..and we must destroy this conflict all together..

so known titles outside of some countries very welcome here! i also like to introduce bands from my own country too (even they are most known ones)


another thing is the categories here..
hmm i think we can work on it..
i couldnt find a way and i put some sections like rock,jazz, folk  etc
maybe we can shape this place all together,
so i am open to every idea to make this forum a better and easy going place for everyone..

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 07:02:30 AM by nahavanda » Logged

Yann
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 09:32:15 AM »

About different countries there are different points of view.
I mean : some bands are considered as prog ones here but no there.
For example, i'm living in Bretagne (which is Celtic part of France) and i know people from Belgium who think that our Celtic Rock is a kind of Folk-prog. Which is not my point of view. For me it's just Traditional music + rock elements.
But when i hear some Folk-rock from Eastern Europe, Asia etc... even Spain, i use to see this which "prog" eyes. I'm not true, just a question of "sounds i didn't know".
So hard to see objectivity there, then let everyone find his own sense.

About categories of PNF forum. Hard to say. Some albums could be put in "rock" and "others" without real distinction.
I've put one from Gerard Manset in Rock section. But some people can see this composer as Pop or Song-Writer (his other albums are mostly obscure-pop, but the one i post can be considered differently ; in France it's seen as a dark opera-rock).
If Kauko Röyhkä has some special sound, why not here ? Even if the band plays in Finnish radio stations. In the 70's, some prog bands were popular.
A band like Dungen is no more than commercial psych from Sweden, but i think it can have its place here. So why not ?
Maybe the "Rock" section is too much wide here. And "Others" too much vague. And certainly divisions could be better. But its' not bother me. What i like is discovering and sharing obscure (or not) bands from past and present.
 Shocked
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Gordon
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2007, 01:05:34 PM »

But its' not bother me. What i like is discovering and sharing obscure (or not) bands from past and present.
 Shocked

I agree with Yann. I dont know why people here make such a big deal about what should and shouldnt be on here. [I dont mean that in a hostile way]
I am happy to find and share great music wether its from 1977 or 2007 and wether there was only one pressing or its the most popular album in the world.
The discovery of great music should be paramount
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Marcus
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2007, 02:12:32 PM »

Very good points from all of you. Especially the idea concerning certain kind of 'exoticism' directed at the music from other (unfamiliar) countries, is interesting. All African music is exotic for me and Brittish music can never do that. But my point was not really about this. The point was to ask, is Bulgarian 'Radiohead' a rarity here? What if it doesn't sound 'bulgarian' (in exotic manner) at all, but rather just like Radiohead? But I quess Nahavanda gave me some answers to that and now I know it's OK to post them here (........and no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want hear you say that it's ok to post Radiohead here - that's not my point now!!!)

The other thing: the question about what should and what shouldn't be here is a big deal for me. It's about my manner of perceiving this forum as a community, which hasits own sliding and invisible boundaries, as all communities do. All right, as said, these boundaries are widely open and some like Radiohead and some Turkish folk, but there still are some boundaries. What if I found some progressive features from Elvis Presley and posted all his discography here album by album. Would that be OK? Some of you may say that, "yes it is, now we learn something new about Elvis". But in my opinion this would go well beyond certain invisible boundaries. It's not a question about what is prog and what is not, but rather about what is the prog we want to listen here. Everything?



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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
Gordon
fRoGgeR
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Posts: 52


« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2007, 02:54:23 PM »

Quote
Everything?
Yes

I like Elvis.
 Smiley
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Marcus
ULtRa fRoGgeR
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Posts: 163



« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 02:57:14 PM »

 Angry
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
mukuta
fRoGgeR
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Posts: 13


« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2007, 06:11:59 PM »

maybe we could add  a frog    frogmusic for more normal music
so i can add a album of micheal franks ;-))))

please dont hit me ;-)
and its nice to read about it ,i just discovered blogs for less a month
but a forum has lower risk of deletion i think ,and i might have some more communication
r e s p e c t  as to speak with ali g
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Yann
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Posts: 154


« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2007, 06:50:01 PM »

Just a feeling about Radiohead :
Why an album like "Ok computer" couldn't be considered as prog by a side. Albums of bands like Pineapple Thief are ranged in prog style but it's not really different than "Ok computer".
So what must we feel : Pineapple Thief is not prog ?
Or must we search prog attitude in some non-prog bands ?
A real hard answer to give
 Smiley
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Marcus
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Posts: 163



« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 03:35:43 AM »

I think that in case of Radiohead the question is not about is it prog, but rather is it a rarity. Some of us don't want main streamers here.

(and I agree with you totally that RH can be considered prog. At least if we compare it to what has happened in progarchives.com: Iron Maiden is prog there!  Shocked)
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
Yann
ULtRa fRoGgeR
****
Posts: 154


« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2007, 05:13:48 AM »

Everything's prog, even my Grandmother  Grin
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Gordon
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2007, 10:13:57 AM »

Angry
Didnt mean to offend you.  Embarrassed

It seriously would not bother me to see an Elvis album here.
I dont understand why some of you dont want 'mainstreamers' here. But its your forum at the end of the day.

Maybe we should change the name of this forum to 'Rare not frog'. Thats all some people seem to care about. Smiley
I mean, it is a form of elitism. You might not want to hear that but it is.

I think a solution is that you are only allowed to post rare things unless someone requests an album which is not so rare. Then we try and help the person. It really doesnt bother me what you decide though, but maybe everyone is happy with this idea?

Disclaimer: despite what it might look like Tongue, My intention really isnt to offend people. Just saying what i think. [and I dont care much for political correctness] Wink
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Marcus
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2007, 11:01:32 AM »

I think that currently I'm the only person offending others here.  Grin But it's not my intention either. Sorry if I have offended someone.

But if you read what Nahavanda wrote about this topic, you may understand what I mean. He (not she, I quess?) is still the administrator here which means that every member should have some respect to his (not her?) wishes.

And posting Elvis here is fine for me too, but is it fine for the 'spirit' of PNF?
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
Marcus
ULtRa fRoGgeR
****
Posts: 163



« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 04:57:41 AM »

Quote
Maybe we should change the name of this forum to 'Rare not frog'.

Quote
it is a form of elitism

Or maybe we should change it to 'Rare Not Square' - by that way we could get even more elistism to this blog!!!  Grin 
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
BwP
Guest
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 12:44:56 AM »

I think that some here have gone way off the path on this particular topic.  The idea of an environment, as I understand it, is to spread music that we think is good to others who may enjoy it.  Now, what each person thinks is good is going to be different in almost every case, hence the constant bickering that is prevelant.  The beauty of a place like this is that very rare things can be exposed to the world.  But, I fear, that has become the primary focus, which I think is wrong, and as was pointed out, just a little elitist.  I always liked to think that the thing that lead most of us to listen to prog in the first place was an OPEN MIND.  Having said that (and I am thinking that most agree with that assessment), I think it is against the very spirit of such open-mindedness to all of a sudden get very close minded about what sort of music we should allow others to present here.  After all, if you were close minded in the beginning, you would never have discovered the genious of some of the bands that started you on this journey.  Some different categories may be a good idea, additional categories, not a restructuring of what is here. 

In terms of rarities, I am in full support of sharing very rare things.  But I think that making that the primary focus is not healthy.  Suppose that someone has come along and just started listening to Genesis last week and doesn't know anything else besides that, and has come to this place hoping to get immersed in the genre.  If all there is are rarities here, then that person will have missed out on all of the giants that form the foundation of our tastes.  True, he will be exposed to some wonderful things he probably will never have been anywhere else, but the groups that I hold near and dear to my heart that lead me to desire those rarities will be lost on him.  I hope you can see my point....
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Gordon
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2007, 08:45:52 AM »

Yes, very well said. I agree with you completely, just wasnt able to express it quite so well.
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Marcus
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2007, 05:32:37 PM »

I think that there has been some kind of misunderstanding concerning this rarity-issue from where I started this discussion. Maybe it was a wrong word. I just think that I have read from somewhere here that this blog is primarily focused on music which is, in a way or another, taking a step away from mainstreem music and back towards 70s. And by that I was not refering to Genesis, but to Robin Williams (of course the difference between them is sliding - "another day in paradise" - you know what I mean). I know that to share rarities is not a mission per se here, and I don't even want it, by no means, but I still have this feeling that there are some sort of limits here, no matter how open we want to be  - this blog is called ProgNotFrog, not BluesNoShoes. Why? Because this is a blog and forum for people who like certain kind of music. Shouldn't we discuss what this means and just be 'open'? I just had feeling, that when I posted Kauhko Röyhkä's album, that it maybe wouldn't be a proper album here - as well as I did when I posted some Deep Turtle albums here some time ago. I know that BwP is wondering why the hell I'm even thinking that it kind of music wouldn't be fine here, but on the other I know there are still members here who think that this blog should be very tightly limited - and I'm not sharing that opinion 100 %, not at all. And all this lead me to this idea about various categories. It's been relieving to read your comments, but do you think that the points I have picked up shouldn't be discussed at all?

...and one issue, I don't understand this elitism-thing at all. I like many mainstreem bands from outside prog. Should I be ashamed of it? Should I feel better and proud of myself when I listen some never-heard vinyl-rip from 1968? At least I don't feel so.
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
nahavanda
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2007, 06:58:59 PM »

My friends;
i love all kind of music..but i dont expect everyone to like everything..

All i am saying is:

Please dont focus on the word "rare" with this way.
If you can buy an album from your near supermarket..and you believe wherever you go in this world: you can buy this album, (that doesnt means that it is a bad album, there are great popular works that we all like) and you can download it with 2-3 clicks then it is worthless to request it in here..

The precious thing is: Time

The sound of PNF? It is your taste of course!

its better to listen what makes you feel ok, i love to get up with manu chao at the mornings..
for the elitism
naa its a bad word
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Marcus
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2007, 06:37:43 AM »

Let's put it this way: For me it is important to know that what you are waiting from me when I'm sharing music. "Anything goes" and "let's be open" can be same things as "who cares?". It's about finding people who care about what I'm sharing and all I'm asking here is, what it means in practise. Anything? "Let's be open." Open to what? I don't say there should be strict limits in this blog - I just think it could be an interisting topic to discuss in itself. I am very open to musical influences myself and I'm very very glad if this blog remains open, but I still think that "open to what?" could be interistic topic to discuss. 'Rare' was a word through which I tried to find some substance to my feelings and ideas, but it was definetelly a wrong word. But there must be some words to describe my feelings...  Roll Eyes

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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
skaarse
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2007, 03:17:33 PM »

BwP sais it all...dont have too add anything!
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Marcus
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2007, 04:29:23 PM »

Quote
BwP sais it all...dont have too add anything!

hmmmmm..... There were many things in my original post which are not discussed here so much. Instead, there have been many other things which have been discussed quite thoroughly....

But of course we can call the end for this topic if you want to. I've heard some opinions from you and they all have been great, releafing advices.
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
BwP
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2007, 12:45:00 AM »

I think a reasonable answer to one of the issues presented here would be to link to a place where you can get the least rare albums.  Instead of taking time to upload them ourselves when a person asks for an easy to find album, simply provide a link to another place where it can be found.  Just an idea....
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Marcus
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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2007, 02:07:45 AM »

Good idea.
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"King Crimson ceased to exist in Septemper 1974, which was when all English bands in that genre should have ceased to exist."
- Robert Fripp

"Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."
- Homer Simpson
Gordon
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2007, 01:29:12 PM »

Well thats what happened with ok computer and there was still uproar so obviously not everyone will be happy with this solution. But I think its a good idea and hopefully there will be no more confusion
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skaarse
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2007, 09:37:58 AM »

I think you all have too see what the majority of posts is here..Rare and not so rare prog. I will continue too upload my favorite music in the prog-genre, and I am not clever finding out wether it is rare too find, or not. A lot of people will have it, a lot may find it easy too find, a lot will be glad for the post...But as long as cases like ok-computer is so rare, I dont see it as a problem...

I dont like elitic thinking, that will scare many away from the beautiful world of prog
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